This is an automatically generated transcript. Please excuse spelling and grammar errors.
Aaron Weiss Welcome to The Landscape, your podcast about America's parks and public lands. I'm Aaron Weiss with the Center for Western Priorities, and we are live this week, coming to you between a few clothing racks at the Denver Patagonia store with the best-dressed crowd I have ever seen. Say hi, everyone! Audience Hi! Aaron Weiss Kate, my co-host, is in Utah. She will be hosting a couple more of these live episodes next week in Salt Lake City and Grand Junction. It is great to be recording this podcast with an audience for the first time in six years as we kick off our Keep Parks public tour. We've got a big old wrapped SUV out front. The whole Center for Western Priorities team is going to hop in and hit the road to talk about the threats to America's parks and public lands, of which I'm sad to say there are many right now, thanks to this second Trump administration and the recently passed budget reconciliation bill. We're going to get to all of that in a minute. We head to New Mexico tomorrow, stopping to meet with conservation partners along the way. We're holding press conferences with those friends of ours in Las Cruces and in my hometown of Tucson, then heading up through southern Utah before those next two live podcasts next week. If you want to join us for those, you'll find a link in the show notes or just head to keepparkspublic.org to RSVP. And with that, it is my pleasure to introduce our guests tonight, starting with Scott Fitzwilliams. He is the former supervisor of the White River National Forest here in Colorado. He recently retired after a 34-year career with the Forest Service. Scott, thank you and welcome to the podcast. Scott Fitzwilliams Great to be here, Aaron. Thanks. Aaron Weiss Kelly Nordini is the CEO of Conservation Colorado, which is the largest conservation organization in the state. Kelly, I can't believe this is your first time on the podcast and we are just thrilled to have you. Kelly Nordini Well, thank you. Thrilled to be here. Aaron Weiss And Kara Matsumoto is the Public Lands Director at the Conservation Lands Foundation. It's an organization that may not be a household name, but if you care about America's national conservation lands system, you need to know what they do. Kara, welcome to the podcast. Kara Matsumoto Thanks for having me, Aaron. Aaron Weiss Kelly, I want to start with you. You have spent decades working on Colorado conservation issues and political issues. What makes this moment right now different? Kelly Nordini What doesn't make this moment different? You know, I think a lot remains the same in Colorado. We see strong leaders and a public that supports our issues. But what we've really lost is a federal partner that is grounded in the law, democracy, public health. any of the norms of political behavior and, you know, good sportsmanship that we normally have seen and taken for granted for, you know, decades, if not hundreds of years. So it's a really challenging moment in time. I think we really are putting our head down and focusing on Colorado while we are part of the resistance, while we are part of the defense and trying to protect some of these core agencies and values. We know where the progress is going to come from in this moment in time, and it really is the states. So I love that you're taking it out on the road and getting out in those western states. That's where the action is. That's where the leadership is. And we hope folks will double down with us and you all in that. Aaron Weiss Scott, you spent three decades working for the federal government, a career that obviously spanned Republican and Democratic administrations. So why step aside? Why retire now? Scott Fitzwilliams Well, you know, I was getting kind of close a couple of years from thinking about retiring. But what did it for me was what we termed the Valentine's Day Massacre when I had to fire 16 people and issue them a letter that said it was because of their performance. And I thought to myself, this is like month one and they want to lie like this. I can't. I won't be able to stay with them. So I decided to take the deferred resignation program and do my work from the outside. It was, you know, just to see something so, well, first of all, it was dysfunctional. It was, there is no plan. There is no, like, they're just kind of winging it. But to these young people, most of them were really young people that we fired. And to issue them a letter that said it was based on their poor, unsatisfactory performance, I knew I couldn't Aaron Weiss stay. And these were the folks in their probationary period. Scott Fitzwilliams Either new Aaron Weiss hires or new Scott Fitzwilliams positions, Aaron Weiss and so they tried to – essentially looking for a loophole. Scott Fitzwilliams Yeah, they did, and then they had to hire him back. And so the odd thing was of 15 of the 16 people we fired on our force that day, they were all – 15 of the 16 were funded with either partner money or fee money. You know, like Maroon Bell's, you know, fees you pay to go to Maroon Bell's. There was no tax money, appropriated money that funded these people. So there was no single dime saved by getting rid of them. It's just breaking the Aaron Weiss forest gap. Kara, the National Conservation Lands Foundation occupies a unique space because of its focus on this national conservation land system. So for folks who aren't as familiar, what is that designation and what's happening on those lands right now? Kara Matsumoto Thanks, Erin. I think I want to zoom back out for a second. So I want to talk about public lands more generally. BLM, or the Bureau of Land Management, manages 245 million acres, mostly across the western United States. The national conservation lands are a specific subset of those 245 million acres. So BLM lands generally are managed for multiple use. That means that we can have oil and gas, timber, grazing, all sorts of uses on these lands. National conservation lands are managed differently. They are managed specifically for conservation of our natural and cultural resources. So that's the set of lands that the Conservation Lands Foundation focuses on. We have 80 grassroots partners across the West, and we are hearing stories about what's happening on these landscapes. due to the funding cuts and staffing shortages that my colleagues here have just talked about. We are seeing less access to these public lands, less customer service opportunities for people visiting these public lands. We are seeing campsites and landscapes that have been trashed. And so we are very concerned about this lack of staffing that Scott just mentioned. Aaron Weiss I want to ask each of you to set the stage here. What worries you the most with what you're seeing at America's Parks and Public Lands right at this moment? And I guess we'll start with Scott on that one since he's been, I guess, the most plugged into these folks and what we're seeing. Scott Fitzwilliams You know, I just, it's quite apparent to me that this is a deliberate dismantling of the public land institutions that this country's had for 130 years. This is my, you know, elevator speech I give everywhere. I think public lands are one of the great experiments in democracy. Nowhere else in the world does this. We have set aside land in the public trust, owned for everyone, and we're messing with that. And we're messing with it in a way that I don't know if there's a deliberate plan other than to just break it down to the point where we're different values or whatever. And I always thought that I didn't think we could get here. I just really thought that now there's too much, you know, passion behind them. So I'm just worried about that. I mean, specifically the, you know, the reduction in staffing and, you know, they, you know, Senator Lee flew that balloon of selling off lands and it got shot down pretty fast. That was a pretty easy balloon to kill. But now it's just going to be through get rid of all the people and take away their money. This endgame is going to be somewhat similar. And so if we can't figure out a way to bring this into a collective consciousness of the whole country that, hey, this is important to us. It's peanuts. I mean, we spend about $34 billion a year on all, you know, Forest Service, Park Service, Fish and Walleye Service, BLM. Aaron Weiss Couch cushion money in the grand scheme of things. In the grand scheme of things. Scott Fitzwilliams For what it gives back to this country and what we get, pretty short-sighted. So I just worry about, like, how far they can bust down the institutions and how long it'll take to bring them back. Aaron Weiss Kelly, what's worrying you the most right now? Kelly Nordini Well, I mean, I think Scott hit the nail on the head about, you know, the balloon of the big high profile sell off of public lands. We were able to defeat that. It was a bipartisan effort in defeating that. And that was really important. And, you know, we had a lot of great partners in that, the Center for Western Priorities, TWS, others. But that does not mean that they don't have, you know, a death by a thousand cuts. And, you know, whether it's fast tracking oil and gas leasing or giving them away at, you know, bargain basement prices, which means the public's not getting the value. Or, you know, ending review processes that are designed to protect water, air, wildlife, whatever it is. A lot of that can happen behind the scenes, and it's much harder to rally and figure out how to fight those kind of, you know, a thousand cuts here and there. And then just pure neglect, you know, losing career employees like Scott is a real loss that we're all going to pay for. 12% of Colorado's economy is tied to outdoor rec, and that's huge. 96% of Coloradans outdoor recreate. What else do 96% of any state population do? Scott Fitzwilliams Breathe. Aaron Weiss Yeah, breathe, right? Kelly Nordini Eat and breathe and sleep. So, I mean, it is part of who we are as Coloradans, and our public lands define this in the West, and we have more to lose. But it's everybody's legacy. It's the whole country's legacy. So it's scary. Aaron Weiss I want to ask about Senator Lee's attempt to sell off millions of acres of public lands, the failed balloon, as Scott put it. And I want to start with CARA because this attempt, it started across national forests and BLM lands. And then Senator Lee said, oh, no, sorry, the forests are sacred. We're just going to sell off BLM lands. Now, that also collapsed under bipartisan pushback, especially from hunters and anglers. What do you take from that? Is that a sign of strength in BLM lands or a sign that Republicans, or at least something I should not say Republicans, that Senator Lee thought that BLM lands were somehow an easier target? Kara Matsumoto I honestly think it's both. I think Senator Lee made that change because he thought BLM lands would be an easier target, that there wouldn't be a large constituency of people that would stand up for these lands. BLM lands historically have been thought of as forgotten lands, and we all know that that is not true, that they are home to amazing wildlife and cultural resources. They are places that we all like to camp, particularly in Colorado, where our national parks and our national forests can be really crowded, but BLM has all of these opportunities for dispersed camping. So I think that Senator Lee really underestimated the strength of BLM lands and the popularity of BLM lands across the West. He didn't think that we would all stand up in support. And I think we saw on social media and in the news and in person, we saw so many people stand up for these BLM lands over the summer. And so ultimately, that proposal was also withdrawn and shot down. So I'm feeling really hopeful that we can continue to build this big tent of supporters for all of our public lands, including the BLM. Aaron Weiss Kelly, from your perspective, what happened there with that big tent, with this coalition that came together? Is this a one-time deal? Is it repeatable? What happens the next time around? Kelly Nordini Good question. Well, I think it depends on what we do. You know, if we do, for instance, what you all are doing and hit the road and keep building support and keep up our efforts, I'd send people to our keepitpublic.co website, which I think links with all your stuff. If we organize and if we keep telling this story and warn people about where the risk still lies, I think that is, you know, our best hope against this death by a thousand cuts. But, you know, you can't separate what's happening with our public lands, with what's happening with a lack of action and rollbacks on climate change to, you know, our drinking water security and our wildlife. These things are all interconnected, and there's a lot of fronts that are under attack right now. And so I think we have to help make those connections for people, and we have to talk about values and what people care about and make those connections and build those big tents. Aaron Weiss Scott, I'd imagine from your years managing national forests, you know how important public lands are to sportsmen. and we talked about that the big tent that came together to fight senator lee's proposal is there either an opportunity or a need to bring more of those folks into the conversation not just about the explicit land sell-off but also about how these other policy changes how the the layoffs the attempts to undermine science affect access to public lands for folks who hunt in the back country yeah Scott Fitzwilliams it it's it's imperative um with all due respect we can all sit in an echo chamber like this tell each other how bad things are and nothing's going to change um if if you don't move a part of the politicians that currently are pretty lockstep in voting a certain way. Nothing's going to change from this path forward. So with that, it's an opportunity. You know, public lands are tough to manage, especially BLM and Forest Service, where it's multiple use as opposed to parks, where it's a lot easier. you know when you have a mandate that you have to provide for all these different uses you're going to have some fights and we have had them for 100 years there's a great story about when Gifford Pinchot came to Denver and they were making all kinds of national forests and this whole birth of conservation was coming there were people with like ropes the kind you hang people with in the back of the room it's always been that way. What we've got to find is I know this is conservation, and the concept of conservation of public lands is a 75, 25, 80, 20 issue that most people will get on board. We're always going to have some, how much logging, how much mining, how much grazing, how much more wilderness, how much less. We'll always have those challenges. It's the greatest part of our public land system. It's, you know, it's part, it's collaborative, it's made to do that. But finding that 75% in the middle that I absolutely believe that they care. We got to message it probably a little different. Probably have to let go of some of the things that maybe were pet projects on the fringes. And, you know, you fight the big fight and that is we got to keep these intact, steward and managed. I mean, we'll be fine. It's the future generations, the kids, my kids, and grandkids that are out there that deserve the same opportunity I had. Aaron Weiss I want to move on to what we are seeing in National Parks, Forests, Monuments this summer. I took my kids up to Olympic National Park in Washington. We sat in a two-hour line to get into the whole rainforest, and there were some overflowing trash cans. What are you all hearing in terms of staffing shortages? And I want to be careful that we're talking both short-term and long-term here because I heard some talk that maybe after the summer things get worse. And I'll just open this up to any of you. Kara Matsumoto I can jump in. I can share. So CLF really works on BLM land, so that's kind of the statistics that I have to share. CLF has always been really concerned about the funding that BLM has had. BLM receives the least amount of funding per acre of all of the four land management agencies. So I believe in fiscal year 24, BLM received $5.77 per acre to manage its lands and $0.79 per visitor over the past 10 years. So that's a really low amount of money to manage 245 million acres. BLM is already at a shortage. They are already trying to figure out how to operate with pennies here. And so the current attacks that we're seeing on staffing and funding cuts is only making the situation worse. And as I said, you know, we have friends groups across the country. They are telling us stories about their local landscapes, the lack of access, the trash that you mentioned. And so I think one of the best things that we can do is advocate for more funding, not only for BLM, but for all of our land management agencies so that these officials can do the jobs that they were hired to do and are so passionate about doing. Aaron Weiss Scott, do you have any specific concerns or what are you hearing about firefighting capacity? Because I know that's top of mind right now. Scott Fitzwilliams You know, in all the firings and resignation stuff, if you were a full-time, if firefighting was in your job description, you were exempt from that. And they got to keep hiring. But it's – the fire apparatus, especially when we see what's going on now, like over by Meeker and Rifle where you have teams and all the support and stuff, is supported by people like me. They're called red card. You're certified to do something on a fire. And we've lost a ton of those people. I think nationwide – gosh, I used to know this number. Aaron Weiss It was thousands. Scott Fitzwilliams Oh, yeah. It was in the thousands. And, you know, when there's a large fire and a team comes in, the way the structure and authority works is my job as an agency administration. So that team works for me. We lost half of the agency administrators that were, you know, the most, they call it, you know, complex certified. So the most experienced of them. And we're squeaking by and people are stepping up and, you know, doing double duty. But it's going to be one of these things that's going to be cumulative. And we're replacing, you know, if you haven't heard, part of the whole reorganization is we're going to get rid of regional offices and Washington office. So they're putting people from those offices into, like, my job and my deputy's job. They replaced it with two great, wonderful people. me and my deputy our combined fire experience was like 65 years the two people that replace us the combined fire experience is zero so it's institutional knowledge it's getting lost they'll they're going to catch on they're great people they just didn't work in fire so if you live in a community does that make you feel good probably not and so i i think and these are things that are going to be subtle they're going to take a little time you know they're on on our Forest, we went in less than a year, went from 162 permanent non-fire employees, and the last I heard is 98. That's a pretty big hit, and lost some of the best people. I'm not considering myself one of them. I'm replaceable. Some of these other people were just, they were grinders. And again, institutional knowledge, walking out there, experience, connection to communities, all those things, you don't just snap a finger and fix that. And so I'm very concerned about that. And this fire season is going to grind on. It's bad. And so we'll see the real effects of it as people start to get a little worn out and teams get going through second and third times and things like that. Aaron Weiss Kelly, what do you think this all means for folks, for families in Colorado that just want to get outside this fall or winter? What are the big concerns? What's the best case and the worst case scenario here? Kelly Nordini Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, experts like Scott can probably speak more to on the ground what it means. But one of the things that I worry about is, you know, we're only seven months into this administration. And some of the things that we are dismantling and sacrificing to these policies are going to have generational effects. You know, how do you build back the expertise? How do you get those acres back once they've been lost or devalued or degraded? How do you restore those habitats? How do you rebuild some of the democratic systems that are under attack? I mean, these are not things to take lightly and that we can just swing back, you know, four years later and pick right back up where we left off. And so that worries me a great deal about how long we're going to, even if we can stave off some of the worst attacks now, what we are losing is going to take potentially generations to come back from. Scott Fitzwilliams If I could add maybe some specific things, that was well stated, specific to the forest that I know well, but it's also, as was mentioned, it's the most visited forest in the country. 18.5 million people visit the White River every year. Give you some context, that's more than Yellowstone, Rocky Mountain, Yosemite, and Grand Canyon combined. This year's funding, as of when I left for recreation, was about 1.7 cents per visitor. Maroon Bell Snowmass Wilderness, which is one of the iconic wilderness areas in the whole state, has two young women in the backcountry, two for a 350,000-acre wilderness. I think they're twins. So many of our recreation sites, like the BLM, are not hardened facilities. They're dispersed and stuff. We did an analysis a few years ago, and some of the most highly visited places on the forest They host about 650,000 people a year. There's not one bathroom in those sites. That's eight Super Bowls or Taylor Swift concerts with no bathrooms over the course of the summer. I'm guessing those people go to the bathroom. It's just a guess, but I'm thinking 650,000. You get the picture. This is the stuff that's going to, over time, we're going to see the degradation if we don't change that, this pathway. Aaron Weiss Kara, I want to ask about national monuments. There was a lot of reporting in the first couple weeks of the Trump administration that they were targeting monuments, thinking about trying to shrink them like President Trump attempted the first time around or eliminate some entirely in just a straight-on assault on the Antiquities Act. Do you have a sense of why we haven't seen that yet? Kara Matsumoto That's a great question. I honestly do not have a good sense. I mean, I think it could be because of all of the groundswell of support that we've seen for public lands generally. It could be just they haven't gotten their ducks in a row yet. You know, there's been lots of rumors swirling about which national monuments see reduced or eliminated. So I think as a conservation community, we are on standby and we are prepared to defend whatever attacks on the Antiquities Act or the National Monuments may come, but still kind of waiting to see what happens there. Aaron Weiss Scott, from your perspective as a former land manager, what happens to land management and planning capacity with that sort of uncertainty hanging over public lands? Scott Fitzwilliams Well, right now, I mean, you know, it's such a horrible situation for the employees that are still working. I mean, the morale is, as you might get, it's beyond the basement. But there's no predictability. They don't know what's coming next. They have no idea what funding will be next. Right now, again, on the White River, a huge forest, all the urban interface of the resort towns of Aspen and Vail and Summit County, there's not one project being planned for fuels reduction in the future. None. And we're watching what's going on. And I think the communities are going to be concerned because we've had some success. So it's the unpredictability and, you know, the lack of really the ability to do anything about it. I think that's the frustrating part for many employees right now. Aaron Weiss Kelly, put this in perspective for us. What do you think comes next? I mean, these outright attacks failed or haven't happened yet because of whatever is going on with their approach to the Antiquities Act. Mike Lee's outright sell-off obviously crashed and burned. So does this mean the next round of attacks are more insidious or harder to track? What's Conservation Colorado thinking about in terms of the next six months and three and a half years? Kelly Nordini Well, it's a marathon, not a sprint. And so we're trying to play the long game and think about that. You know, I think one opportunity if we are doing our jobs and building a big tent and organizing and educating is that people start to make more of the connections. You know, the dismantling is one thing, and there's real danger in that. We're going to see more fire. We're going to see more communities impacted by fire. That drives, you know, home insurance rates. Wildfire mitigation is one of the biggest drivers of increasing utility costs. You know, the Republican budget bill is going to make us less safe and everything more expensive. Outdoor public lands are a lifeblood of rural communities in a lot of places. So, you know, if we are doing our job and educating and organizing and making these connections from people, That's probably one of our best defensive efforts is to tell that story and make it not just about, you know, something that impacts a small amount of people, but that really affects large swaths of the country that are, you know, oftentimes rural, oftentimes do not have other opportunities. And uncertainty alone can kill that. You know, that has a chilling effect on the economy, much less outright attacks or real danger like fire destroying communities. So we're just going to see all that compound. Aaron Weiss We're going to open this up in just a minute to questions from all of you. So if folks have questions you want to ask these folks, please feel free to start standing up and heading over towards that other microphone. And while that's happening, Cara, I want to ask you, what's the lesson in terms of that public pushback? Are we discovering that some members of Congress can feel shamed for trying to push through budget cuts to parks and public lands? Or what volume level is necessary here? Kara Matsumoto I don't know if I can put a level on the volume, but I think we have learned a lot of lessons from this most recent effort to sell off public land. I think we've learned that public lands are an incredibly bipartisan and popular issue. People from all different walks of life, whether you're an expert mountain biker or rock climber, or you just like going for a walk with your dog, public lands are truly for everyone. And we can build, we use the term big tent a lot tonight, but I really do think we can build this big tent constituency for our public lands, which is really exciting. I think that is the reason that our members of Congress did feel shame. We saw people changing their minds, withdrawing their proposals, and I think that's really powerful. And I would encourage all of you to not let your guard down. The public land sell-off was a really egregious attack on our public lands. But as you've heard from the other speakers tonight as well, public lands could die a death from a thousand cuts. And even if they change kind of the name, the title of what they're doing, they still might be trying to take away your access to public lands, whether it's putting oil and gas development crisscrossing the West, that will take away your access to public lands. If there's not enough agency staff to process recreation permits for boating or rafting, you will also lose your access to those public lands. And so I would really encourage folks to engaged. I think being here at an event like this or listening to a podcast like this is really important to kind of stay engaged and stay on top of the issues here because I think these attacks will keep coming. But I know that we can all stand up and protect our public lands. Scott Fitzwilliams If I could, Aaron, I've been thinking the last week or so about an example of where you could build that coalition, that tent of, you know, diverse interest to get the leaf fire that's burning. Now it's 120,000 acres, top four or five in the state's history. And there's no end in sight over by Meeker now heading down towards Rifle. If you haven't been in that country, it's some of the finest. and it's a mix of BLM and private land. Some of the finest mule deer winter transition range in the state and that eastern Piance country. When this is all said and done, 150,000 acres of habitat are going to be gone and we're going to have cheatgrass in three years, which ain't really good. It's not good for mule deer. It's not good for wildlife. And it's not good for cattle. The ranchers don't like it. So I've been thinking about this like even before the smoke stops, let's start, you know, building that coalition of, you know, getting members or, you know, the delegation to push through some sort of restoration funding that helps all of those people. Ecological restoration, you know, the mule deer habitat and then put native grass instead of cheatgrass because the whole thing will be cheatgrass. I mean, after a fire, that kind of country turns to cheatgrass unless you get after it. And so that's an example where that's the kind of thing we need to move on and hoping to get people to start thinking that way. It's like, hey, let's solve a problem for a lot of different people. Aaron Weiss Before we wrap up, and I do have a last question for these three. So while we're waiting, I want you three to think about what is giving you hope right now. But if we've got any questions from all of you, feel free to jump up. If not, I can't believe that I have asked every single question that any of you have been wondering tonight about public lands with these three experts here. So here we go. Please say hi. Jason Hi, I'm Jason. My question is for Scott in particular. So for, we'll call it continuity of knowledge in the park system, do you see that there's a way to preserve that either in an oral history, some sort of written capacity so that as these systems start to come back online and, you know, the next administration and so on and so forth, there is this history of folks who have 30 or 40 years in the park system who didn't get a chance to teach this to the next generation of folks below them. Scott Fitzwilliams Yeah, to some extent, I mean, we do it already. And I think, you know, the basic premise of how we do forest planning and how we do our environmental analysis, that'll all be in place. It's just, you can't replace someone who's been on a piece of ground for 15 years, 20 years, and they just know that, that just takes time. And so that's going to take some work to build that back. I think if I'm an optimist, I believe people are going to get pissed. And the rebuild is coming because they're just going to get angry from all sides. and maybe we will be able to start that rebuild sooner than later. Aaron Weiss And I'll add I have seen that there are some former folks on the Interior Department side who are already starting that sort of institutional knowledge project to talk to the folks who have left and capture some of that knowledge in hopes that it can be provided back when it's welcome. Scott Fitzwilliams I joke that when the rebuild comes, I want to come back to work because it's going to be fun. I really believe that. I mean, it's like this could be really fun. A reinvigorated public around public lands could be really fun. And maybe better funding could be really fun. Kelly Nordini We hope you do come back. Rhea Hi, my name is Ria. I wanted to just ask if each of you could give one example. I'm sorry to make you pick one, but something that anyone listening could just do, something proactive to protect public lands. They could do it from home or if they want to leave, but pick one action that everyone could take. Aaron Weiss Great question. Kelly Nordini I would say it's really important that people pick up the phone or write the email or go to the public meeting. Even here in Colorado, we have some great champs who really support public lands. but they need to keep hearing from everyone, much less than the people who may not be in that camp yet. So your voice matters. It really matters. And I had heard a great quote at the beginning of this year that I keep thinking of, which is, you can't roll up your sleeves if you're wringing your hands. And we need everybody to roll up their sleeves. Stop the doom scrolling, get off of your device, whatever it is, roll up your sleeves and engage. And that is what's going to make the difference. Kara Matsumoto And I'll echo Kelly. I think that's absolutely correct. And I'll just add, you know, I think a lot of your local and national nonprofits can help you do that. So the Conservation Lands Foundation website has tools where you can just click through to email your representative, tell them that BLM needs more funding, tell them to protect national monuments. I know CLF is not the only organization who does that. Many of your advocacy organizations will have those tools. And so if that's intimidating to you to pick up the phone or write your own email, there are very easy ways to kind of take action through those websites. Scott Fitzwilliams Move to a red congressional district. And I am, I shouldn't have said that. I tell you, if any of you knew me better in my politics, I am pretty independent in the middle of the road. But right now, that's where the message needs to be sent. And so that's important. The other thing is if you live close to a BLM office or close to a national forest district office or near a park, they need help. And there are the only reason right now, at least on many of the forests that I know, and certainly the one I used to manage, that they're functioning at all is because we have such incredible partner groups that bring in. I was at a fundraiser the other day for a trails group in Vail. They raised $160,000 in one night. And it's just, you know, they're now hiring the trails crews because we can't hire anyone. And so if you have that opportunity to, you know, pick up a shovel for a weekend, Aaron Weiss do it. I refuse to end this on a bleak note, and hopefully those lights going out doesn't mean that we're getting kicked out right this moment. So each of you, what gives you hope right now? And we'll start with Kara. Kara Matsumoto Oh, man. Well, I think I've talked about this public land sell-off success story enough, but that is one thing that gives me hope. But to talk about something slightly different, you know, we've talked about building this big tent. And I have the privilege of working with a number of different organizations that work to broaden the tent. So I sit on the board of an organization called Environmental Learning for Kids. I serve as a co-chair for a coalition that works to work on both justice-oriented and conservation-oriented issues. And I think that seeing all of these different communities come together for our public lands really gives me hope, particularly seeing our youth get outside. I think one thing that you can do is help volunteer with youth and get them outside and help build that love for public lands really early, and that really gives me hope moving forward. Aaron Weiss Scott? Scott Fitzwilliams I just believe that the guys, most of them were guys, 125, 130 years ago, John Muir, Teddy Roosevelt, Gifford Pinchot, what they came up with is too important to this country. And so this is a bump in the road. And I really believe the recreating public and the people who love their public lands are going to step up and could be even better. Aaron Weiss Kelly gets the last word. Kelly Nordini The last word. Well, I have two daughters who are college age, and one of them found her passion in college. in Gunnison County in search and rescue, and the other is a camp counselor this summer doing outdoor adventures. And both of them have had different approaches to the outdoors, and they've served different parts of their life. But both of them and all of their friends know how important it is. And so I find my hope in that next generation, because I think, you know, they're seeing what's happening and they know that this is not okay and this is not the future that they want um and so i hope that that they will get mad as hell right and um and make a change and choose a different path because they're seeing where this kind of leadership leads and what it puts at risk and i think they'll change it fabulous Aaron Weiss that's going to do it for this live episode we've got to pack up the SUV and hit the road. Huge thanks to our Senior Director of Advocacy, Lauren Bogard, for doing all of the heavy lifting tonight, putting together everything we have planned over the next week and a half. Our design guru, Lily, did a killer job on that SUV wrap. Please take pictures if you see us on the road over the next week and a half. Follow along on Instagram, both our main Western Priorities account and the Keep Parks Public account. Sterling is psyched for all the content. He's got coming. I saw him wandering around here tonight with a big old camera on a gimbal. We will be posting from the road from our press events coming up in New Mexico and Arizona this week and this weekend. If you're in Salt Lake or Grand Junction, come join us Thursday the 21st and Friday the 22nd. Kate has a bunch of great guests lined up for those events. Probably some more door prizes, too. So on that note, thanks to our friends at Patagonia for hosting us and for donating some merch. We're going to give away, I think, a backpack or two here in a second. And thanks, of course, to our guests here, Kelly Nordini, Kara Matsumoto, and Scott Fitzwilliams. I'm Aaron Weiss. On behalf of the whole Center for Western Priorities team, thank you for joining us live, and thank you for listening to The Landscape. applause